The Teacher Burnout Podcast

43 Anastasia Hercules
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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Teacher Burnout Podcast, where we explore the challenges of burnout for teachers and share practical strategies to support teacher well being. I'm your host Barb Flowers. If you're a teacher looking for ways to prevent burnout or an educational leader searching for strategies to support your team, this podcast is for you.

Let's dive in. Welcome to the Teacher Burnout Podcast. I'm so excited today because we have a special guest with us. Our guest today is Anastasia Hercules, who has a variety of teaching experiences in different types of school districts. So I'm excited to hear about some of her experiences, and we're going to be talking about controversial topics in education.

And the stress that comes with teaching these topics and how to navigate that. So I want to start the episode by just having Anastasia share a little bit about her background and her experiences in

education. All right, thanks Barb. I [00:01:00] am starting from About 2007, um, up until last July of 2023, I have been a classroom teacher for approximately 15 years.

I was a history major, so I wasn't your traditional education major. History major, English minor, transitioned to teaching program, and actually, like, I did business management to put myself through school, and I feel like I learned a lot of classroom experience, uh, from that, um, maybe more than from my education classes.

I have taught across three states in the Midwest, Indiana, Kentucky, and Missouri. I've taught in all kinds of different environments, from rural to urban to suburban. ages ranging from middle school all the way through my last teaching appointment was actually teaching adults high school curriculum.

I have taught in also different settings as well as private. Uh, schools, both religious and secular, charter schools, and public schools. beyond that, my [00:02:00] educational experiences, I did get the amazing opportunity to be a Fulbright Scholar and travel. Um, I love travel, it's a very big passion of mine. I also got to do a teacher exchange to India.

So I've seen what teacher, different teacher models are like, um, not only in India, but I actually did something similar, uh, in Trinidad and Tobago as well. And, uh, I've led students, uh, for international study abroad trips during the summer, which was, I will say, to all the teachers out there, if you can do that, that was one of the most meaningful experiences.

experiences I ever got to do as a teacher, so highly, highly, uh, encouraged people to do that, like, but I love travel, so, ultimately I became a teacher because, not only do I love travel and learning, but I, I love teaching and sharing that with my students, and I really wanted to make the world a better place, and I just really always thought education was the best way to do that.

Well,

it's cool to hear about all of your different experiences. You bring such a range [00:03:00] of, you know, not only age levels but different types of schools you've been in and, um, that's really neat about traveling with the students. I'm sure that was an awesome experience and to see what schools were like in a different country.

So it's great to have you on. Um, so being in those different districts, you've probably, you know, you have things you're passionate about wanting to teach and We're taught in college about equity and inclusion and all of these things. But what happens when you get into your own classroom and you're in a district that may not fully support what you're trying to teach your students when it comes to controversial topics or even, not even opinions, but just exposing them to these controversial topics and letting them have.

you know, conversations. What does that look like and how have you handled that?

Well, I will say, um, so I actually, part of the reason I became a teacher is because my teachers changed my life. I grew up in a very kind of, closed environment, [00:04:00] like, and my teachers just really opened my eyes to the world and opened my eyes to understanding parts of the world, and that's why, you know, I decided to teach history and social studies, um, and I, I get it, right?

Especially as a history teacher, I always felt like there was so much I really stress, teaching history because it's really up to, uh, especially in social studies in general, all of our classes and our curriculum is like a one, one unit, right? Like, if I don't teach them this part of American history or world history, they're not going to, it's not like they're going to go next year and the other teacher is going to scaffold it and make a, you know, review it, like it's one and done.

So, I really get that pressure of like, This is passionate and this is, uh, the right thing to teach, but I have also, like, had the experience of, um, it's really, really important to know, like, where your students and your community and your [00:05:00] school is at. Uh, I cannot express the importance of culture, um, I would always try to teach that when I taught my subject and how important understanding the culture of a time period or a place or people was, but it's also really important as a teacher, that if you are in a culture, you know, you have, we talk about, you have to reach students where they're at.

And if you are in a culture that is not going to embrace that, depending on where you are at in your career, and the relationships you have, it can be very, very stressful, and, uh, I mean, I will say, as a social studies teacher, I mean, I was almost, like, sometimes on a daily basis, like, sweating what I was teaching, or just exposing students to, and like, how many parent calls am I going to get, or, because, you know, in one day I could be teaching comparative religions and teaching about Islam, like I started out teaching, and that was the big concern was, you know, how is the Middle East and [00:06:00] Islam going to be taught?

Um, or you could be teaching about, you know, comparative economics. Uh, my la one of my last schools, that was probably one of my worst experiences and the most, closed. environment for teaching, um, my first day teaching at that school, or my first couple weeks, um, my unit that I started out with was American History, and it starts with the Industrial Revolution.

So in order to do that, like, you have to understand capitalism. And to understand capitalism, you have to understand the alternatives, which is socialism and communism. And my principal, who, it was only his second year, it was my first year in the Uh, came up to me at a faculty meeting and he's like, Hey, I just wanted to let you know, not a concern for me, but I just wanted to let you know I've gotten emails from parents saying literally because I used the word communism in class that I am now indoctrinating and brainwashing students.[00:07:00]

So I should have known then that, um, you know, how do you teach controversial class, uh, topics? Uh, you have to know your, you have to know your culture, you have to know your environment. And as harsh as it sounds, like if you find yourself, first of all, if you are a first, second, or, you know, I know it's different depending on what state or even what school you're in.

Um, but if you're on like an annual evaluation process, I hate to say it, but you kind of have to stick to the military model of like, you don't want your name brought up, lay low, especially if now, if you have a really strong department that like they are all on board, um, or if you have a really strong principal.

Um, that is very supportive of his teachers and does not let parents, um, or, or school boards even, like, bully and drive the curriculum, that is really great. But, in my experience, I literally counted it up, [00:08:00] um, before we talked, I have been at, in those 15 years, I have been at, 11 different schools. no, I'm sorry. I take that back. Nine different schools, but I've had 11 different head principals in those nine schools. And, um, I will say, and this could be my experience, but of all of those 11 principals, I had about one and a half principals, because one of them I just had for a semester. Uh, but.

That were really good. Like, I had a handful of, you know, two or three that were just mediocre or just, like, didn't exist. Like, I never saw them, which was fine. but the majority of my principals, the head principals, were not good leaders. either they didn't have the support or they didn't have the courage and backbone to support their teachers or a lot of principals really feel like their job is to protect and teach the students.

So [00:09:00] it's this like jumping rank. Um, I'm a big believer in servant leadership. In fact, the best principal that I had, uh, said, you know, because she was actually a really good math teacher and I asked her like, well, why in the world did you leave the classroom and become a principal? Like teachers don't like principals.

Why did you become one? And I really feel like knowing all that I know now and all my experience, and especially how the job market has changed. Now, social studies is always a unique creature. Like I would often like found out that as a social studies teacher, if you're applying for a job, you can be 500 applicants.

Yeah. So you just have to take whatever job you can get, but you know, I think the job market's changing and I think my best advice for teachers is like, you know, schools need you now more than you are needing the job. So you vet those schools, you know, you find out the culture of your school. And at my last, my very last school I was at, I got to the point where I [00:10:00] was asking And I asked the principal, I said, Can you, like, tell me about your culture?

Describe the culture of the school. And, um, she looked at me like I was crazy, and she had no idea what I was talking about. And I took the job anyway, because I was still a social studies teacher, it was two years ago. I should have known then, that was a very big indicator, like, if you don't consciously create that culture, and if you don't have a principal that can answer that question, then, be wary, right?

Um, because you know, it's not on the radar. So, um, and also I would say a big, what I've come to realize now being in the doctoral program that I'm in is, I was really always, I wasn't just teaching kids social studies. I was using social studies to try and teach kids character, like, yeah, them how to be good, responsible, ethical people.

And if you, and if I had known to like go out and look for schools that were schools of character, and that that was a part of their mission and curriculum, I feel like my experience would have been much [00:11:00] different. So yeah, that would be my big thing. Like, make sure you know your environment. And if you find yourself, if you're a new teacher and you find yourself in an environment that is not a school of character, that maybe your principal is not so strong, maybe you're in a department where everyone's just trying to survive.

And waited out to retirement, which so far, like everyone I know in education, it breaks my heart, but even the people that are passionate about it are like, just waiting, just waiting for retirement. I literally only want to know one teacher that is excited about her job. I hate hearing that. But, but really ask those questions, and then if you don't have that environment, I mean, my honest advice is, know that as a teacher, um, especially as a social studies teacher, I think I always felt like, well, freedom of speech, like, I can teach these things legally.

That is 100 percent not true. Like, talk to a lawyer, like, if you ever found yourself like, like, oh, well, this [00:12:00] is freedom, like, that is not the case. Like, I actually have, met with employment attorneys at points, um, that are like, well, you might be under this. And I literally had to tell them what I learned from other experiences was like, no, as a teacher, K 12.

You work for your school, and if you aren't supported by that school, that district, the principal, whatever, then you, they can get rid of you. doesn't really matter. and so if you don't have a supportive school, also know, know your, your union rights. one of my schools that I was at, that I was talking about earlier, that periodically likes to make the local and national news for, uh, their shenanigans.

come to find out, like, I actually had joined the union, um, that it was that same school that I told you about that the first week, uh, parents were, because I mentioned the word communism and socialism, were saying I was brainwashing their kids. And I'm like, well, that's not how the lesson at all works.

So that [00:13:00] same school, I joined the union. I actually became a building rep. It was only my second, third year in the district because I'd started out at a different kind of school. And, um, I really thought that that made me safe and it absolutely did not. And that was really upsetting for me because here I am paying union dues, going to school board meetings, advocating, speaking up.

And then when it push comes to shove, That union was like, well, you're not five years, so technically we, like, can't back you, so definitely be aware. I think my biggest mistake in teaching controversial topics is naivety. Like, this is how it should be, so this is how I'm going to act, and at the end of the day, I think the reason that there is such a crisis in teaching right now and teachers are leaving the classroom is that because after the pandemic, teachers suddenly realized, like, I am giving 150 percent of myself, my time, like, sacrificing things [00:14:00] with my family, my friends, and for a district, a school, people, parents, students, like, I am giving 150 percent of myself, my time, like, sacrificing things with my family, my friends, and for a district, a school, people, parents, students, like, that don't care about me.

And so my big mission now is really teaching, um, teachers boundaries and self care, um, and I think it's really important to be aware of those boundaries and to say, no, like, it's not safe for me to teach this. And even though it's the right thing to do. Until we change the system, and we start supporting teachers, vehemently, then some of those things have to go, like, you have to still, I used to tell people all the time, um, because I've been in education a long time, and, you know, I've been in social studies departments, and, you know, I've seen, like, really great teachers, like, I was lucky to have really great teachers, and I've seen, Like, teachers that are, here are worksheet, we're watching this movie, like, while I, do other things, like, and it's not even [00:15:00] necessarily teacher's fault.

You know, like when you've got, you're a teacher and you've got to teach three different preps and you're also a full time coach, like, and the coaching is what your job depends on, like, what do we expect from people? they're, they're going, they're, and there's studies that talk about, like, how difficult it is to, to do two things.

Because you're always being pulled in two directions, whether it's a academic extracurricular, whether it's a union extracurricular, whether it's a sports extracurricular, like, we just ask way too much of our teachers, and I really think a part of the issue, like, teachers being able to teach these controversial topics is teachers modeling, I'm not going to do it until it's safe for me to do it, like, in my research, like, teachers more than, this was really surprising to me, more than nurses, police officers, and paramedics suffer from burnout.

And [00:16:00] demoralization, um, fatigue and, and all these things. And I think the biggest reason why teachers are like this is because the majority of teachers, it's still, uh, what they call a pink color profession. It's still women. And, uh, we, just tell teachers, well, if you set boundaries or you don't teach this subject.

You're, or do something that could risk, you know, the life, your livelihood or your, your family being able to pay the mortgage or the electric bill, then like you're being selfish and that's not true, it's not really going to change until teachers start saying like, this is not okay and I don't accept it.

So as much as I hate to say it, like I would encourage people if you find that you're in one of those districts. You don't have to like, now, if, if, if you have tenure and you have support and you have a good union, fight to change the district, you know, help your leader become better, [00:17:00] like, servant leaders, like, go to the school board, like, use your community as a resource, I'll remind, like, I used to always be like, Oh, I don't want to be like everyone else.

Like, I want my classroom to be a very meaningful experience. And I've learned that if you're going it alone, like if you're one person, you can't change the whole system. The nail that sticks out gets hammered. So watch out. Oh, I like that. Yeah, it's a, I think it's a Chinese proverb, maybe Japanese. But, I think it's very true.

I think we, We live in a culture that's very on individual and do your best and, and be unique and like, you can't change the world all by yourself. You need a critical mass. And that goes to like, so how do we teach controversial topics? It's really all about relationships. Right. So that's why, like, if you're a first or second year teacher in a building, don't, don't do that.

When I went to that same school [00:18:00] that, that questioned me for just saying the word communism, they, with my experience coming in, they're like, Oh, I think we're going to give you contemporary issues. And I was like, please don't. Please don't. I'm a first year teacher. Don't give me that topic. That's super controversial.

Right? Um, and they did anyway, which probably was unsupportive. Like, I always go back to thinking, my mom told me a long time ago, and I didn't necessarily, uh, grow up in an environment that was Pro education. I grew up, I come from a blue collar family, so very skeptical of education in general, but my mom was like, why do you want to be a teacher?

It's so political. And when I've come to find out, like, I used to just think, oh, my mom's just being negative. Um, no, she's really right. Um, it really is. So, so be aware of your environment. but in the meantime, consciously intentionally build culture, build relationships, not only [00:19:00] with your students and in your classroom, um, build it with your relationships and build it with your principals.

You know, I had all those. Um, not great principals, but I will say, um, especially being a history and social studies teacher, I always try to ride the middle and understand both sides. And I really think that as teachers, like, teachers tend to not like principals, um, but I think we don't understand how often principals are also really limited in their power.

Um, And they're kind of middle management. Yeah, I was gonna

say, middle management is what we are as principals, so that's the difficult part.

Rockin the hard place, right? So, so you built that relationship with your principal. That one principal that I had that was really great, like, she was great because she knew me.

without knowing me. Like, she could look at my resume, look at my experience, and she just placed me where I needed to be, and she ultimately supported me, but then I also supported her. Like, so I think, like, reaching out to the principals and telling, like, I support you, [00:20:00] um, and, like, if you are going to discuss a controversial classroom, a controversial issue in your classroom, I would encourage you, like, yeah, reach out to your department, your department chair, your colleagues, like, and say, like, how is this going to be received?

How can I make this less You know, um, inflammatory or triggering, but I, I think it always really helps. And if you don't have a principal, that's naturally that way to pull your principal in the loop because they're the ones that are going to be getting the calls. And so if they already know, um, so I, I think that it's, we always talk about in, and I think it's almost become a trope.

A like mindless trope in education, like, oh, it's all about relationships. No one cares what you have to teach them until they know how much you care and all that. Like, I think we've taken that a little too far, but we've also not taught people. for several generations now, because character education has really been ignored since the 1990s.

[00:21:00] Um, that, um, and, and almost like you can't do character education, right? You can't teach, tell people how to raise their

kids. That's become a controversial topic. Yeah, like, like social emotional learning. Yeah, right.

And I keep saying in my classes, like, it's not controversial, folks. Like, it doesn't matter what Political side, religious side, there are some universal things like I think all of us We just want our kids to be decent, kind, productive people.

and that's all it is. Like, let's not make controversy where it's not there. And so, um, but all of that comes in relationships, but we don't teach people how to be in relationships. We don't teach people how to communicate, um. You know, and I know that's what this is all about, is like, how do we have those difficult conversations?

and so I always try to, even in schools where I was, it was my first year teaching in a school that was unwelcome, to, obviously, you can't even say the [00:22:00] word, you know, controversial words because then you're brainwashing people, you work on relationships and what I would always tell my students is I would spend a week or two.

Which was difficult and a very intense social studies curriculum because we've overwhelmed social studies teachers and trying to get it all in three years, that I would spend a week or two of the first weeks of school because part of my training was like the, the famous Harry Wong's first weeks of, uh, first days of school and talks about like, it's worth the time.

to spend building classroom culture and norms and habits in the classroom. And a big part of that I would make with icebreakers and students getting to know each other. Like, I always would have them, I gave them some sort of icebreaker activity, sometimes speed dating, sometimes just like random questions.

And literally it was their task by the end of the week to find something they had in common with every single person. I think that's really where we start having meaningful [00:23:00] conversations is we have to teach people how to be in relationships, teach people how to like have conversations. And I really hate to say it, um, because I really think across education, even in higher education, um, we are really bad at listening.

yeah, so of course we teach kids. to be bad at listening.

Well,

I think you brought up a lot of really good points. I, I took a social justice class in my administration program, and one of the things the professor told us, which I love and I always think about, is you can't be fighting for social justice if you lose your job.

So, you have to do it within the parameters of your job and the school district that you're in, because you have to remember that the school district is serving the community, and every community has different wants and needs from the school and their district, so you have to know what that is, and then you Push the limits within that based on what's appropriate.

And so like Anastasia was saying, really knowing the [00:24:00] district, knowing your principal, having conversations with them about it, running things past them. and maybe you start small, like even in elementary, we talk about the importance of just showing diversity in the books that you read to kids, you know, so just little things that you're doing, building community in the classroom that Students feel comfortable and can have conversations and build those relationships.

And, you know, even diversity is part of like social emotional learning. That's some of the topics that we talk about where we're just teaching that kids are different and that's okay. So it's Small things that we can do, I think, to start these conversations. It doesn't always need to start in a, in a big way with race or something like that, but it can just start with these small things with building community.

And I think that that's really important. But the biggest thing here, and I love that Anastasia said, you have to have boundaries because If you don't have those boundaries, you're going to lose your job. If you're going outside of the boundaries of the school, and you're not setting those boundaries with what you're [00:25:00] comfortable with, at the end of the day, you have to remember that teaching is your profession, and you do it for the income and to have money for your family.

And if you do it in a way that is going to get you fired and you lose your job, then it's not worth it. So you have to keep that in mind. Even when we're really passionate about issues and want to fight for things, you do have to remember there are limits.

Right. And I, I know that, um, You know, like, how can we do this, like, outside of the classroom?

I think that, being a good, like, citizen. First of all, I'm against the word debate. Like, stop saying it. Stop using it. Um, let's, let's switch to deliberation. Right? A deliberative mindset. The idea of you share your ideas, I listen, and I try, and we, we are trying to find a common ground, right?

We're trying to, and if the needle is at a certain place, collectively, and you're, you know, one way on the spectrum and I'm another, like, we are just trying to move that connective, that collective needle, and so [00:26:00] it's not going to be in your camp or in my camp, but we're going to gain understanding and hopefully broaden the perspective.

You know, I, I know that, um, My aunt asked me once like, well, you know, you're, you're going in and like, you want to like change the culture. She's like, is that appropriate? Like, is that what the school wants? Is that what the community wants? And I think that, um, this year, just this year, I, I made a vow to myself, like, I'm no longer going to try to teach people.

who are not interested in learning. Um, and I know that's hard as an educator because I mean, ultimately, that's the nature of compulsive education. Like teach, kids show up to the classroom and they might not want, you know, we can talk about like all of the reasons why that is, but they might not want to learn, um, and grow and change.

And, and it's, It's like really about just exposure or laying a seed, but if you don't have a relationship with that student or that [00:27:00] person, you're not going to get anywhere, right? So, um, I think we do this in the classroom by becoming all those things that what good leadership and education and instruction tells us, which is like, we have to do it by example.

And you have to change the way you are being, right? So, even in the conversations I have with my friends or family, you know, so where does this change happen? It doesn't happen necessarily in the classroom. It happens over the phone or at a kitchen table because the change happens inside of you first.

Like, you have to be the change. That you want to see in the world. So, I think it, and for me, it really has involved, uh, for my, cause I, I grew up in, like I said, uh, kind of a close minded environment that was, you know, this is right. This is wrong. That's the, that's it. Right. And you weren't changing anyone's mind.

but listening, becoming more important and truly seeking to understand versus to be understood and [00:28:00] looking for the good and whatever anyone's, Thinking, and then for me as a social studies teacher, always trying to bridge that gap between I want to help you understand, you don't have to agree, but just understand this perspective, and you over here that maybe has the opposite perspective to understand the people over here, you don't have to agree.

But you have to look at it and say, Oh, I see where they're coming from. I don't agree, but I see where they're coming from. And then, and then there are some things that are just so personal and so intense. You know, whether it's talking to, you know, maybe someone who's Jewish about Israel and Palestine, or, uh, you know, I, I, I have, uh, friends that are LGBTQ, like, I don't bring up the J.

K. Rowling situation, like, I just don't, like, I could have opinions, those are my opinions, but it doesn't matter because I think once we switch from focusing on ideas and content to how learning really happens, which is [00:29:00] relationally, and once we focus on, you know, what matters more, I is my relationship, is the community, society.

Then we get to a place, instead of like asserting our individual rightness, um, and then all we do is get, you know, push back. I think when we really talk about like, it's, it's about developing relationships, and understanding one another, then it is about this particular idea. Like, I think then that's when things start to switch for us as teachers and us as a society.

I love that. I think that's such a good way to end the conversation. It's just thinking about, you know, the relationships that you have with the school system, the community, and, you know, everyone involved because that is, that's a good point, Anastasia, how you make the change. It comes from those relationships and the trust that you build with others.

And you can't do that if you're in constant, resistance with the school or with parents on what you're teaching and, why, you know, you want to make sure [00:30:00] that's all in alignment. So, I hope that everyone got something from this conversation and I hope that, you know, if you're in a situation where you're trying to talk about controversial topics, You learn something that you can apply, whether that is doing it in a different way, building those relationships different, or maybe just waiting on having those conversations till you're in a different environment or more experienced in your career.

But however you look at that, you know, I hope you found this episode helpful, and I hope you stay tuned for next week's episode.